CPSA Membership charge?

[+.com (A.Lee)]

My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.
Now, call me cynical, but is it really worth the money?
We get a magazine 10 times a year, and insurance while shooting.

AIUI, the ground owners already supply insurance while shooting an event
anyway, so the insurance is not really a great benefit.

So what else do we get for this?

Also, what was the membership fee last year?
I paid £46, and cannot recall any discount when I paid for it, so why
has there been such a large increase (~20%) this year?

I've looked on the website, but there doesnt seem to be any mention of
such a large fee increase.
Is this extra fee the amount they will need to cover the extra costs
involved with the proposed name change?
I wasnt too bothered about the name change, until, I heard how much it
was going to cost to make the change - the estimate was "over £100,000".
If that is nearly true, then 2000 members fees will be used to make the
change - it doesnt seem such a good deal then does it, especially when
there are only 24000 members.
Any thoughts?
Alan.

[Jb]

'Any thoughts'?... Lots but most of them involve words that would make a
clergyman blush. I've made my feelings known here about the name change so
what more can I say other than they are going the right way to lose a
member. Not a biggy I grant you and they do admit to expecting some loss of
membership over it.

Now add the 20% increase and there may be a few more but do they care? Not a
lot. It's more of a case of 'we do as we like and you lot will do as you're
told.' I really am taking a great dislike to the high handed attitude that
seems to coming across.

If as they say we can vote on such things why can't we have a referendum in
the next magazine rather than a meeting in some god forsaken place nobody
has heard of and involves a major trip for most members.

Call you cynical? OK you're cynical. That makes two of us.

Jb

Post by +.com (A.Lee)
My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.
Now, call me cynical, but is it really worth the money?
We get a magazine 10 times a year, and insurance while shooting.
AIUI, the ground owners already supply insurance while shooting an event
anyway, so the insurance is not really a great benefit.
So what else do we get for this?
Also, what was the membership fee last year?
I paid £46, and cannot recall any discount when I paid for it, so why
has there been such a large increase (~20%) this year?
I've looked on the website, but there doesnt seem to be any mention of
such a large fee increase.
Is this extra fee the amount they will need to cover the extra costs
involved with the proposed name change?
I wasnt too bothered about the name change, until, I heard how much it
was going to cost to make the change - the estimate was "over £100,000".
If that is nearly true, then 2000 members fees will be used to make the
change - it doesnt seem such a good deal then does it, especially when
there are only 24000 members.
Any thoughts?
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

[David Christensen]

*Date:* Thu, 18 Jan 2007 19:45:57 +0000
My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.
Now, call me cynical, but is it really worth the money?
We get a magazine 10 times a year, and insurance while shooting.
AIUI, the ground owners already supply insurance while shooting an event
anyway, so the insurance is not really a great benefit.

The ground's insurance covers the ground, not you. If you're injured
through somebody else's fault, you might also attach some blame to the
ground and sue them as well, so it may pay a proportion in that case. But
if you shoot something/one that you shouldn't by mistake, then the
ground's insurance will not protect you. The CPSA insurance will.

DC

[lee]

Post by David Christensen

*Date:* Thu, 18 Jan 2007 19:45:57 +0000
My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.
Now, call me cynical, but is it really worth the money?
We get a magazine 10 times a year, and insurance while shooting.
AIUI, the ground owners already supply insurance while shooting an event
anyway, so the insurance is not really a great benefit.

The ground's insurance covers the ground, not you. If you're injured
through somebody else's fault, you might also attach some blame to the
ground and sue them as well, so it may pay a proportion in that case. But
if you shoot something/one that you shouldn't by mistake, then the
ground's insurance will not protect you. The CPSA insurance will.
DC

Having just started shooting and got my gun, I made sure my home insurance
covered it for away from home. While on the phone I found I had a few
£million liability insurance. Saved me the membership fee anyway :o)

Lee

[+.com (A.Lee)]

Post by lee

Post by David Christensen

Post by +.com (A.Lee)
My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.
Now, call me cynical, but is it really worth the money?
We get a magazine 10 times a year, and insurance while shooting.
AIUI, the ground owners already supply insurance while shooting an event
anyway, so the insurance is not really a great benefit.

The ground's insurance covers the ground, not you. If you're injured
through somebody else's fault, you might also attach some blame to the
ground and sue them as well, so it may pay a proportion in that case. But
if you shoot something/one that you shouldn't by mistake, then the
ground's insurance will not protect you. The CPSA insurance will.

Having just started shooting and got my gun, I made sure my home insurance
covered it for away from home. While on the phone I found I had a few
£million liability insurance. Saved me the membership fee anyway :o)

I only pay the membership so that I can do the Competitions. I think £55
is getting a bit too much though, I was at a local CPSA committee
meeting this week, and everyone there condemned the increase - the CPSA
has around 24000 members - with around half a million shotgun owners, so
why dont they join up?
Cost IS a factor, as well as little benefit from joining - most game
shooters will be in BASC or another body where insurance is provided at
less than the CPSA membership cost.
Out of the 10 or so attending, only 1 thought the CPSA were doing a good
job,with a lot of criticism of the management - so much so that there
was talk of getting a bus load to attend the AGM and voice their
concerns.
Alan.

[David Christensen]

*Date:* Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:21:56 +0000

Post by lee

Post by David Christensen

Post by +.com (A.Lee)
My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.
Now, call me cynical, but is it really worth the money?
We get a magazine 10 times a year, and insurance while shooting.
AIUI, the ground owners already supply insurance while shooting an

event

Post by +.com (A.Lee)
anyway, so the insurance is not really a great benefit.

The ground's insurance covers the ground, not you. If you're injured
through somebody else's fault, you might also attach some blame to the
ground and sue them as well, so it may pay a proportion in that case. But
if you shoot something/one that you shouldn't by mistake, then the
ground's insurance will not protect you. The CPSA insurance will.

Having just started shooting and got my gun, I made sure my home insurance
covered it for away from home. While on the phone I found I had a few
£million liability insurance. Saved me the membership fee anyway :o)

I only pay the membership so that I can do the Competitions. I think £55
is getting a bit too much though, I was at a local CPSA committee
meeting this week, and everyone there condemned the increase - the CPSA
has around 24000 members - with around half a million shotgun owners, so
why dont they join up?
Cost IS a factor, as well as little benefit from joining - most game
shooters will be in BASC or another body where insurance is provided at
less than the CPSA membership cost.
Out of the 10 or so attending, only 1 thought the CPSA were doing a good
job,with a lot of criticism of the management - so much so that there
was talk of getting a bus load to attend the AGM and voice their
concerns.
Alan.

Even if they don't want to expend the effort of attending the AGM, they
should write to the CPSA board (or even email them).

Without feedback, how will they know?

DC

[David Christensen]

*Date:* Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:05:59 GMT

Post by David Christensen

*Date:* Thu, 18 Jan 2007 19:45:57 +0000
My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.
Now, call me cynical, but is it really worth the money?
We get a magazine 10 times a year, and insurance while shooting.
AIUI, the ground owners already supply insurance while shooting an

event

anyway, so the insurance is not really a great benefit.

The ground's insurance covers the ground, not you. If you're injured
through somebody else's fault, you might also attach some blame to the
ground and sue them as well, so it may pay a proportion in that case.
But
if you shoot something/one that you shouldn't by mistake, then the
ground's insurance will not protect you. The CPSA insurance will.
DC

Having just started shooting and got my gun, I made sure my home
insurance covered it for away from home. While on the phone I found I
had a few £million liability insurance. Saved me the membership fee
anyway :o)
Lee

Did you specifically check if your insurance covered you for damage caused
by a discharged shotgun? Which insurer?

DC

[superx]

You could always join the Welsh CPSA - much cheaper and still lets you
shoot all English registered shoots - the only thing you don't get is the
PULL magazine - Mind you if you all pull out then how is Phil Boakes going
to fill the tank on his big car???????

Dave

Post by David Christensen

*Date:* Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:05:59 GMT

Post by David Christensen

*Date:* Thu, 18 Jan 2007 19:45:57 +0000
My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.
Now, call me cynical, but is it really worth the money?
We get a magazine 10 times a year, and insurance while shooting.
AIUI, the ground owners already supply insurance while shooting an

event

anyway, so the insurance is not really a great benefit.

The ground's insurance covers the ground, not you. If you're injured
through somebody else's fault, you might also attach some blame to the
ground and sue them as well, so it may pay a proportion in that case.
But
if you shoot something/one that you shouldn't by mistake, then the
ground's insurance will not protect you. The CPSA insurance will.
DC

Having just started shooting and got my gun, I made sure my home
insurance covered it for away from home. While on the phone I found I
had a few £million liability insurance. Saved me the membership fee
anyway :o)
Lee

Did you specifically check if your insurance covered you for damage caused
by a discharged shotgun? Which insurer?
DC

[superx]

Update -- It's the Welsh Clay Target Shooting Assoc
Adult £40
Junior £20
Senior £25
Club £30

Dave

Post by superx
You could always join the Welsh CPSA - much cheaper and still lets you
shoot all English registered shoots - the only thing you don't get is the
PULL magazine - Mind you if you all pull out then how is Phil Boakes going
to fill the tank on his big car???????
Dave

Post by David Christensen

*Date:* Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:05:59 GMT

Post by David Christensen

*Date:* Thu, 18 Jan 2007 19:45:57 +0000
My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.
Now, call me cynical, but is it really worth the money?
We get a magazine 10 times a year, and insurance while shooting.
AIUI, the ground owners already supply insurance while shooting an

event

anyway, so the insurance is not really a great benefit.

The ground's insurance covers the ground, not you. If you're injured
through somebody else's fault, you might also attach some blame to the
ground and sue them as well, so it may pay a proportion in that case.
But
if you shoot something/one that you shouldn't by mistake, then the
ground's insurance will not protect you. The CPSA insurance will.
DC

Having just started shooting and got my gun, I made sure my home
insurance covered it for away from home. While on the phone I found I
had a few £million liability insurance. Saved me the membership fee
anyway :o)
Lee

Did you specifically check if your insurance covered you for damage caused
by a discharged shotgun? Which insurer?
DC

[+.com (A.Lee)]

Post by superx

Post by +.com (A.Lee)
My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.

Update -- It's the Welsh Clay Target Shooting Assoc
Adult £40
Junior £20
Senior £25
Club £30

Those prices are what I'd call reasonable - over £50 isnt.
The Ground Owner at Kibworth SG is now threatening to stop doing 100
bird ESP events, as he says he can lose money some weeks when doing
them.
In effect, if you are not a CPSA member, you cannot shoot on the ground,
unless you pay around 45% more than the usual shooting fee. The normal
price for 100 shots of sporting (albeit with only 8 or 9 traps, on a 50
shot course) is £20. The 100 ESP days are £26, plus the CPSA 'Green Fee'
of £2.50.
He says when the Green Fee was brought in, 7 members immediately asked
for a refund on their ground membership, as they had no wish to pay
extra for a competition that they were not taking part in.
He says non-ESP shooters are negligible on competition days. Having to
pay 15 or 16 trappers, as well as the usual 3 or 4 ground staff loses
money for him when only 70 turn up, as there were yesterday.
A comparison was made with Orston Shooting ground. They have a non-cpsa
sporting competition, £25 entry fee, all eligible for a prize. The
ground is packed every time they have it.
Even more of our County Championships will be held outside of the County
this year - the 2 ground owners struggle enough, without having to
subsidise the CPSA, so they have refused to host some of the
competitions this year.Others, such as the Olympic Skeet and Skeet
Doubles have hung on by a thread - if there are not many entrants this
year, they will either not be competed for next year, or run in
conjunction with another County.
Alan.

[David Christensen]

Post by +.com (A.Lee)
In effect, if you are not a CPSA member, you cannot shoot on the ground,
unless you pay around 45% more than the usual shooting fee. The normal
price for 100 shots of sporting (albeit with only 8 or 9 traps, on a 50
shot course) is £20. The 100 ESP days are £26, plus the CPSA 'Green Fee'
of £2.50.

The £6 difference is the prize fund. There is no obligation to offer a
prize fund. He can run a birds only registered shoot for £20. There is
no levy per shooter paid to CPSA for a registered shoot provided the
shooters are CPSA members. Prior to the "Green Fee" the rules stated that
non CPSA members could not shoot registered shoots. However the green fee
argument is entirely separate to the 20/26 discrepancy.

DC

[+.com (A.Lee)]

Post by David Christensen

Post by +.com (A.Lee)
In effect, if you are not a CPSA member, you cannot shoot on the ground,
unless you pay around 45% more than the usual shooting fee. The normal
price for 100 shots of sporting (albeit with only 8 or 9 traps, on a 50
shot course) is £20. The 100 ESP days are £26, plus the CPSA 'Green Fee'
of £2.50.

The £6 difference is the prize fund. There is no obligation to offer a
prize fund. He can run a birds only registered shoot for £20.

Not at the 2 grounds I go to. Birds only is £26, Competition is £32.
Non-CPSA people can only enter the Birds only at £26 plus the green
fee.
Not a cheap day at all.
Alan.

[David Christensen]

*Date:* Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:37:36 +0000

Post by David Christensen

Post by +.com (A.Lee)
In effect, if you are not a CPSA member, you cannot shoot on the ground,
unless you pay around 45% more than the usual shooting fee. The normal
price for 100 shots of sporting (albeit with only 8 or 9 traps, on a 50
shot course) is £20. The 100 ESP days are £26, plus the CPSA 'Green Fee'
of £2.50.

The £6 difference is the prize fund. There is no obligation to offer a
prize fund. He can run a birds only registered shoot for £20.

Not at the 2 grounds I go to. Birds only is £26, Competition is £32.
Non-CPSA people can only enter the Birds only at £26 plus the green
fee.
Not a cheap day at all.
Alan.

The pricing of that is down to the ground though, not the CPSA. (apart
from the £2.50). Maybe you should ask why it is 20 normally and 26 for
registered.

DC

[+.com (A.Lee)]

Post by David Christensen

Post by +.com (A.Lee)

Post by David Christensen
The £6 difference is the prize fund. There is no obligation to offer a
prize fund. He can run a birds only registered shoot for £20.

Not at the 2 grounds I go to. Birds only is £26, Competition is £32.
Non-CPSA people can only enter the Birds only at £26 plus the green
fee.

The pricing of that is down to the ground though, not the CPSA. (apart
from the £2.50). Maybe you should ask why it is 20 normally and 26 for
registered.

Extra ground staff on 100 bird days - so an extra £500 or so in wages
for the staff. Usually he has 4 or 5 people doing the trapping/buttoning
on non-registered days, if there are too many shooters there, he gives
them a Claymate box to button themselves.
On 100 bird days he has 1 person at each of the 14 traps, 1 spare, then
2 others doing various jobs around the ground, as well as the usual 4
full time staff members.Casual staff get £50 for a Sunday.If only 15 of
them, that is around £500 extra wages to pay on the day compared to a
usual Sunday. So he needs roughly 100 shooters at £26 to cover the extra
costs of the 100 bird ESP.
There were around 70 there on Sunday, he reckons he would only just
break even for the day, and more likely would be at a loss.
His gripe was that because of the green fee imposed by the CPSA, casual
shooters no longer turn up on 100 ESP Sundays, and consequently he is
losing money because of that - why pay £29.50 for 100 shots when you can
shoot 5 miles away at £5 for 25 shots.
I can see his point, he says he has supported the County CPSA for a
number of years now, even hosting events that lose money (Skeet doubles
springs to mind), and now he is losing potential income, because of the
green fee, and now, because of the CPSA membership increase, he thinks
there will be even less CPSA shooters this year, and a further drop in
numbers attending the ESP events.
Alan.

[David Christensen]

*Date:* Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:09:12 +0000

Post by David Christensen

Post by +.com (A.Lee)

Post by David Christensen
The £6 difference is the prize fund. There is no obligation to
offer
a
prize fund. He can run a birds only registered shoot for £20.

Not at the 2 grounds I go to. Birds only is £26, Competition is £32.
Non-CPSA people can only enter the Birds only at £26 plus the green
fee.

The pricing of that is down to the ground though, not the CPSA. (apart
from the £2.50). Maybe you should ask why it is 20 normally and 26 for
registered.

Extra ground staff on 100 bird days - so an extra £500 or so in wages
for the staff. Usually he has 4 or 5 people doing the trapping/buttoning
on non-registered days, if there are too many shooters there, he gives
them a Claymate box to button themselves.
On 100 bird days he has 1 person at each of the 14 traps, 1 spare, then
2 others doing various jobs around the ground, as well as the usual 4
full time staff members.Casual staff get £50 for a Sunday.If only 15 of
them, that is around £500 extra wages to pay on the day compared to a
usual Sunday. So he needs roughly 100 shooters at £26 to cover the extra
costs of the 100 bird ESP.
There were around 70 there on Sunday, he reckons he would only just
break even for the day, and more likely would be at a loss.

So shoot it as a 10-stand 100-birder. 4 less staff, £200 fewer costs,
which is the cost increase (20 -> 26) from 33 shooters. Which is more than
the difference between what he had and what he needs.

His gripe was that because of the green fee imposed by the CPSA, casual
shooters no longer turn up on 100 ESP Sundays, and consequently he is
losing money because of that - why pay £29.50 for 100 shots when you can
shoot 5 miles away at £5 for 25 shots.
I can see his point, he says he has supported the County CPSA for a
number of years now, even hosting events that lose money (Skeet doubles
springs to mind), and now he is losing potential income, because of the
green fee, and now, because of the CPSA membership increase, he thinks
there will be even less CPSA shooters this year, and a further drop in
numbers attending the ESP events.

A fair point.

I wouldn't like to be trying to make a profit out of running a shooting
ground!

DC

[superx]

Post by David Christensen

*Date:* Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:09:12 +0000

Post by David Christensen

Post by +.com (A.Lee)

Post by David Christensen
The £6 difference is the prize fund. There is no obligation to
offer
a
prize fund. He can run a birds only registered shoot for £20.

Not at the 2 grounds I go to. Birds only is £26, Competition is £32.
Non-CPSA people can only enter the Birds only at £26 plus the green
fee.

The pricing of that is down to the ground though, not the CPSA. (apart
from the £2.50). Maybe you should ask why it is 20 normally and 26 for
registered.

Extra ground staff on 100 bird days - so an extra £500 or so in wages
for the staff. Usually he has 4 or 5 people doing the trapping/buttoning
on non-registered days, if there are too many shooters there, he gives
them a Claymate box to button themselves.
On 100 bird days he has 1 person at each of the 14 traps, 1 spare, then
2 others doing various jobs around the ground, as well as the usual 4
full time staff members.Casual staff get £50 for a Sunday.If only 15 of
them, that is around £500 extra wages to pay on the day compared to a
usual Sunday. So he needs roughly 100 shooters at £26 to cover the extra
costs of the 100 bird ESP.
There were around 70 there on Sunday, he reckons he would only just
break even for the day, and more likely would be at a loss.

So shoot it as a 10-stand 100-birder. 4 less staff, £200 fewer costs,
which is the cost increase (20 -> 26) from 33 shooters. Which is more than
the difference between what he had and what he needs.

His gripe was that because of the green fee imposed by the CPSA, casual
shooters no longer turn up on 100 ESP Sundays, and consequently he is
losing money because of that - why pay £29.50 for 100 shots when you can
shoot 5 miles away at £5 for 25 shots.
I can see his point, he says he has supported the County CPSA for a
number of years now, even hosting events that lose money (Skeet doubles
springs to mind), and now he is losing potential income, because of the
green fee, and now, because of the CPSA membership increase, he thinks
there will be even less CPSA shooters this year, and a further drop in
numbers attending the ESP events.

A fair point.
I wouldn't like to be trying to make a profit out of running a shooting
ground!
DC

I can not for the life of me understand how a small organisation like the
CPSA with about 26k members can have so much control over the clay shooting
community - Can some one explain what difference it make to the CPSA or the
Reg shooters who are there for the glory of classifications when say 80
casual shooters who are not members turn up to shoot for pleasure on a B/O
basis - in this day and age the ground owner needs as many feet through the
door as possible - If things go on as they are and ground owner start to
loose money then the number of grounds we have to shoot at will start to
decline -- I can name 10 ground within a 50 mile radius of me that have
closed for one reason and another and we can't afford to loose anymore. Are
the people in charge of the CPSA so blinkered they can't see wood for the
tree's - or is it me with a simplistic idea???
As I said spead the word to join Welsh - it counts as good as CPSA in
everything except magazine.

Dave

[David Christensen]

*Date:* Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:35:11 -0000
I can not for the life of me understand how a small organisation like
the CPSA with about 26k members can have so much control over the clay
shooting community - Can some one explain what difference it make to
the CPSA or the Reg shooters who are there for the glory of
classifications when say 80 casual shooters who are not members turn up
to shoot for pleasure on a B/O basis - in this day and age the ground
owner needs as many feet through the door as possible - If things go on
as they are and ground owner start to loose money then the number of
grounds we have to shoot at will start to decline -- I can name 10
ground within a 50 mile radius of me that have closed for one reason
and another and we can't afford to loose anymore. Are the people in
charge of the CPSA so blinkered they can't see wood for the tree's - or
is it me with a simplistic idea???
As I said spead the word to join Welsh - it counts as good as CPSA in
everything except magazine.
Dave

Sadly I think the argument is that if you could should the competitions
without being CPSA, then the CPSA would lose members and you would get a
spiralling decline.

But having said that, if putting on registered shoots didn't attract
busines, grounds wouldn't do it.

DC

[superx]

Post by +.com (A.Lee)

Post by superx

Post by +.com (A.Lee)
My renewal has come through - it is now £55 for a year.

Update -- It's the Welsh Clay Target Shooting Assoc
Adult £40
Junior £20
Senior £25
Club £30

Those prices are what I'd call reasonable - over £50 isnt.
The Ground Owner at Kibworth SG is now threatening to stop doing 100
bird ESP events, as he says he can lose money some weeks when doing
them.
In effect, if you are not a CPSA member, you cannot shoot on the ground,
unless you pay around 45% more than the usual shooting fee. The normal
price for 100 shots of sporting (albeit with only 8 or 9 traps, on a 50
shot course) is £20. The 100 ESP days are £26, plus the CPSA 'Green Fee'
of £2.50.
He says when the Green Fee was brought in, 7 members immediately asked
for a refund on their ground membership, as they had no wish to pay
extra for a competition that they were not taking part in.
He says non-ESP shooters are negligible on competition days. Having to
pay 15 or 16 trappers, as well as the usual 3 or 4 ground staff loses
money for him when only 70 turn up, as there were yesterday.
A comparison was made with Orston Shooting ground. They have a non-cpsa
sporting competition, £25 entry fee, all eligible for a prize. The
ground is packed every time they have it.
Even more of our County Championships will be held outside of the County
this year - the 2 ground owners struggle enough, without having to
subsidise the CPSA, so they have refused to host some of the
competitions this year.Others, such as the Olympic Skeet and Skeet
Doubles have hung on by a thread - if there are not many entrants this
year, they will either not be competed for next year, or run in
conjunction with another County.
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

Years ago when I was a Bird only member of CPSA it allowed me to shoot
registered shoots B/O suited me a I was overclassed in A and in them day it
was impossible to come down a class - Then that Tw*t Orduna found that on
the English and British Opens a B/O shooter was entitled to win sponsered
prizes but not money - so in theory if I shot my socks of and Digweed broke
both arms I could have won A class or High gun - Yea like let's get real-
you only shoot B/O for a reason so this fat B*****d stopped B/O shooters
shooting BO and EO - The CPSA does nothing for the club shooter - at my
local club the entries are normally between 80-100 and I doubt if 5% are in
CPSA - What is Boaksy thinking about - I had a stand up with him at 2005
midland game fair then went and Joined BASC - it was a lot more than CPSA
but principals come into it - So check on Welsh - you don't have to live in
Wales -if enough shooter went across perhaps it might just open their eyes.

Dave